Looking for a frame

I've been almost ready to get my first multirotor for a couple years now and am finally getting serious. I've looked at many frames types, from 370 to the 550 size. It would be nice to at some point be setup with FPV, so with that in mind are there any advantages or disadvantages to frame style.
Do you like what you're flying or is there something you would do differently now?
The ones I've been looking at are;

Turnigy Talon Quadcopter 
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__22781__Turnigy_Talon_Quadcopter_V2_0_Carbon_Fiber_Frame_550mm.html

Q450 Glass Fiber Quadcopter Frame (cheaper than dirt)
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__24173__Q450_Glass_Fiber_Quadcopter_Frame_450mm_Integrated_PCB_Version.html

DJI FlameWheel F450 (very popular and out of stock many places)
http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/2_382_2405/products_id/235233/n/DJI-Innovations-Flame-Wheel-F450-Basic-Quadcopter-Kit

HoverThings Flip FPV Multi-Rotor Frame (most expensive of the lot but pretty cool looking)
http://www.rcdude.com/servlet/the-2522/HoverThings-Flip-FPV-Frame/Detail

Bat Bone Tri 370 Kit
http://shop.flitetest.com/multirotors/bat-bone-tri-370-kit/

What ever frame I end up with will be controlled by a NAZA-M V2.

Can't really beat the F450, nothing is more popular and available.

It is popular and a little hard to find in stock right now.

Here is the F450 kit in stock in california for $34.99 right now.  I totally agree with PP that this is the way to go.  I have three of them flying.

http://www.cnchelicopter.com/servlet/the-2141/DJI-WKM-or-NAZA/Detail

...Tiger

Here is another source for $32.  I've bought a lot of stuff from these guys.  Good to deal with.  I strongly suggest you stick with "real" DJI components and pass on the clones.  Although they look the same, there is a difference in quality.

http://www.uavproducts.com/category.php?id_category=10

...Tiger

Thanks for the links Tiger.
I have one spotted, the NAZA 450 arf model (will be backordered) with 12% off if I purchase today.
This was supposed to be a winter project so I guess waiting a week or two shouldn't hurt too badly.

So you're getting it with the NAZA controller?

...Tiger

It comes with just the motors, esc and props.
Already have the NAZA M V2.

Sweet!  You're going to love it.  I have a (original) NAZA in one and various other controllers in others (KK2, NanoWii, Hoverfly, etc) and without a doubt, the NAZA is the best flying and easiest to get working of the bunch.  The only problem with the NAZA is the price and the fact that it won't work on a tricopter.  I have several tri's and the NanoWii has worked out best for that.  The best "value"  and most flexible thing out there is the KK2.  It's very inexpensive, works well, and the LCD makes it super easy to tweak.  That and the DJI frame is what I usually recommend for guys starting out.  The NAZA is awesome, but it's a big gulp for most guys on day one.  Sounds like you're about ready to rock-n-roll.

...Tiger

If you mean the Y configuration, I belive the v2 does. Check out page 6 in the link.
http://download.dji-innovations.com/downloads/nazam-v2/en/NAZA_Quick_Start_v1.14_en.pdf

Yes, it is a pretty good chunk of change. I got the 12% off the controler too which helps a bunch.
https://www.heliproz.com/default.asp

That is a Y6 (6 motor) either forwards or backwards, not a 3 motor with a servo on the tail type.

Thanks, I didn't see that.

Dang, I wasn't able to order the arf frame at the sale price. They don't do orders if the item is not in stock.
Tiger, Pelagic Pilot, what are you using on your various frames for motors and esc's?

Did you already purchase your frame?  If not, you might look at a TBS Discovery style frame if you plan to do FPV and aerial video.

No, I've not got the frame yet.
The dji 450 frame is high on my list and would have got one yesterday but I didn't notice the fine print about no backordering. 

The TBS Discovery frame is cool looking but spendy.

You running the dji motors and esc's on your multi John?

The TBS Discovery is a bit spendy, but there are a few other similar frames, some copies and of course the QAV-400, QAV-500 and QAV-540 from FPV Manuals.  Their store is here: http://www.getfpv.com/
These QAV frames are probably the best on the market right now for FPV and aerial video quality due to their clever built in anti vibration system.  They have incorporated "Dirty" (motors and other vibration generators) and "Clean" (where your cameras mount) platforms which are separated by built-in anti vibrations insulators.  They are not cheap, but I've flown these DJI systems a lot and though the plastic arms are durable they are also flexible and they transfer the motor vibrations to the frame too much so you end up having to do a ton of fidgeting to get vibration free aerial video.  The better the video quality you want to make the harder it is to get the vibrations out.

If you are not concerned with making quality aerial video, or stills, then the DJI frames are the best and parts are cheap.  The DJI frames will be great if you only want to do FPV and no GoPro type quality video.

The other guys on here have a bunch of quads and tricopters but they mostly fly around a schoolyard short distance LOS and for that kind of flying the DJI frames are really are great.  Some of those guys don't seem to mind whacking into the ground or each other from time to time so the low cost of the DJI arms may outweigh the benefits of good photo or video quality.

If you plan to venture out there with FPV and a decent quality camera like a GoPro or similar then I would consider your frame style more because you will struggle to get clean quality video too much with the DJI stuff.

Besides the vibration problems the other thing you should consider is how you will mount your camera(s).
Do you care if the propellers are in the view of camera?  I do, and so I was forced to mount my AP camera under the frame on my F550.  You can also do this on the F450, and you will have to, to get the props out of the camera's view.  This type of mount means you will need really tall "Stilt" style landing gear which changes the flying characteristics.  I went with a food container on mine and it's worked out pretty well, but now that causes other challenges with the mounting of my gimbal and is further exasperated when trying to implement some anti vibration system components.

I bet we will soon see more frames designed like the QAV models with built-in anti vibration systems and wide TBS Discovery style arms that will be out of the field of view for the cameras just for those reasons.

Regarding my motors and ESCs: Yes, I am using the stock DJI motors and their 30 amp ESCs.  These motors are the sturdiest because they have 8mm tops that are nearly impossible to bend and they mate with my favorite propeller, the Graupners, without any modification to the props or motors.  So far I have not had a single ESC failure either.

If I was to start out on a fresh new multirotor knowing what I know today I would get the QAV-540 frame and outfit it with the Tiger Motor MT-4006-13 740kv motors.  Those motors are pretty expensive but they are really well made and have great performance and can handle 4S without problem which you might have to consider if you go with a quad instead of a hexa to make up for all the weight of the FPV gear and GoPro.

Thanks for sharing that John.
More to consider.
It appears the jell type rubber dampers between the "dirty" portion to the frame and the clean parts are the thing to make it work.
Couldn't that idea be incorporated in to other frames on the market with out much trouble?

GPB - Maybe I just missed it, but what exactly are your goals for this thing you are building?

One thing that comes to mind as I see this thread developing is that you might want to walk before you run.  I guess I'm that kind of guy.  I definitely value the input I get from other folks as I start down any new road, but I try never to lose sight of the fact that I'm going to have to walk that road it in my own shoes eventually.  Everyone's goals and experiences are different so you have to filter everything you hear accordingly. 

Almost all of us have at least started with DJI frames and they have served us well.  They are very inexpensive, very rugged, and easy to use.  Even if it's just going to end up being your learning platform, I'd still highly recommend them.  Keep in mind that everything you're buying except the actual frame ($34) is easily moved to a more advanced and capable frame when you think you're ready.  There is a lot to be said for just getting something in the air to get started so you can figure out what's really right for you.

The frame and other equipment John is recommending is unquestionably excellent and I don't doubt for a second it's what he would buy right now.  But...  That decision is based on a massive amount of experience he has gained with a far more basic setup.  John definitely has more airborne camera time than any of the rest of us.  He's done some amazing things as you can see from all his video postings.  But, like the rest of us, he's also taken some good lumps along the way.  The lumps seem inevitable when you're starting out so maybe a more modest approach would be a really good thing. 

I have no idea what you are planning to use for a camera.  You are most likely thinking GoPro.  I find it interesting that everyone is using those.  I had one and I thought it sucked.  I think everyone uses a GoPro, because everyone uses a GoPro.  I'd encourage you to at least look at other options.  I'd especially recommend that you look at Tysons postings about the Canon A2200 he's playing with.  It has a CCD sensor as opposed to a CMOS sensor (GoPro) so it's nowhere near as sensitive to vibration.  Note that it does have realtime NTSC output for FPV.  Even with vibration issues aside, the video out of the Canon is (IMHO) far superior to the GoPro.  There is far less lens distortion for one thing.  A CCD sensor really shines for our application.  I'm not saying rush out and buy a A2200 (Walmart $79), but at least take a look at any CCD options that are out there.

As for motors, like John, I do like the DJI motors.  They are reliable and rugged.  There are no doubt better motors out there for Big$, but I think the DJI is a lot of bang for the buck.  The only drawback I see with them is that they have a double-d on the output shaft so they don't accept all the props that we commonly use.  I have machined the "D" off of mine so they do accept regular props, but that's a hassle for most folks.  (I have a posting somewhere on this forum showing what I did).  I've also used some very inexpensive HobbyKing  (Turnegy) motors with good success.  For ESC's, I almost always use 30A HobbyWing (NOT HobbyKing).  Quads don't fly well with three motors, to I don't ever use "no-name" ESC's.  The DJI ESC's are very good and they are optically isolated if you like that.  I think they are 40A which is clearly excess capacity, but it never hurts.  I think getting the DJI full kit with motors and ESC's is a pretty good deal and I think they are still in stock on the links I gave earlier.  If the kit comes with DJI props, you want to throw those away unless they are a lot better than they were in the beginning.  You can ask John about that.  The Graupner props that John mentioned are super good, but super expensive.  Then again, they are not as expensive as a crash after your DJI props explode in the air for no reason.  

I'll be looking forward to your build post and first flights. 

...Tiger

 

I would go for the DJI motors, one of the better designs I have seen.

Again, thanks for the input guys.

Tiger, what I hope to do first is learn to fly this thing.
With my heli experience I'm hoping that should be a fairly flat curve.
Second is to get some photo and video that does not have near so much of the vibration/jello effect that my helis produce, and more than likely with cameras I already have for now. I agree with you and I'm not particularly interested in the GoPro either.
The next step would be FPV but down the road a bit, and I hear you when you say motors and gear are easily swapped.

The NAZA arrived yesterday.