Track Sketch

I made a post some weeks ago in this thread about changing/redesigning the White City's track. It somehow caught the eyes of somebody on the Board of Directors and I was asked to draw something up. Here it is, drawn roughly to scale at 120' x 90' @ 10' lanes. I'm posting it here for constructive criticism. I've never done this before and this is only a rough sketch. Jump placement and so forth is just kinda "thrown in" and would likely have to be moved around once the layout is on the ground. It looks fun to me. I was told no tabletops (sorry) and no berms. I really feel that it needs at least one berm somewhere though; they're fun.

I think all modern RC short course truck and buggy/truggy tracks need elevation changes.  The world in not flat. 

Quoted for emphasis

[size=14pt]+1[/size]

A lot of people would agree with you, but there's two sides to that argument. People do like big jumps, but it also creates larger problems. If people struggle clearing the jump consistently (think novice classes or stock motor) there's going to be a lot of crashes and will ultimately slow everyone else down. Racing is about going fast and not crashing, not necessarily about catching big air and crashing spectacularly.

This is my personal opinion speaking as both a seasoned racer and somebody who's concerned for everybody's fun and enjoyment: The track should be fun, look inviting, but not intimidating. A first-time racer can easily be scared by big jumps with big gaps. There needs to be a good balance. Jumps need to be built so they can be cleared by an experienced racer, but also taken as single jumps for those that are less skilled or with slower trucks.

Berms are definitely fun and help make high-speed corners more fun, but they need to be added to corners that allow for high-speed cornering. Putting a berm on a 180-degree turn isn't the best use, because the fastest guys will just hug the pipe and ignore the berm. They need to be put on sweeping corners or chicanes.

Tabletops, in my opinion, are pretty useless. Everybody just clears them anyway, so why waste all the fill-in dirt? I'd rather see a berm or uphill corner used with that dirt.

And that is your opinion, but to design a track that everyone want to keep coming back to, listen to them, you can't satisfy everyone, but need to figure a medium. You build yours, ill run it. Heck ya!

As an update to the original post, the club got back to me and said they would consider my design. I'm not expecting them to use it, but I wanted to give them a different direction to take. They also asked me for any other designs I might have or want to make. Sounds like they're talking about rebuilding the track in July. If they're planning on racing next month and then rebuilding the track in July... whatever, let them figure it out.

Good luck with anything in White city.  It used to be a pretty decent small track and area, then when the powers at B decided that nitro was bad  :-X  They tore it to hell and made a basic 1980 1/10 scale track with 1 and I repeat [size=24pt]1[/size] foot jumps and it became useless to the masses and died.  When everyone including the people here realize that there are more than [size=24pt]1[/size] size of RC and build a track that suits all then everything I'm seeing so far is a wash.  The only thing I'm going to hold my breath for is Adam at sleads building a track since he has been taking in some real world advice about a track, and has realized he cannot please everyone but must appeal to the masses.  A flat fast track is fun for two minutes, whereas a rough ever changing real world track is always a blast since it takes skill to drive.  All I can say is look at the real world of Off-road racing, there not perfect and groomed and flat.  There rutted up and ever changing which takes driver skill.  Look at the Dirt Challenge this year, they ran everything on that track.

Amen to that!

yeah we're all pretty schooled on the "powers that be" involved with the  white city track.  i've let it be known that i'll race elsewhere too
 
However, i think what Nexus is trying to do is great.  If at least one person gets to drive on a Nexus designed white city track and have fun, then it's all for good.  just because we can't have fun out there doesn't mean nobody else deserves too.  it wasn't the worst track to start with, i had fun racing on it the last couple seasons. (i didn't have anything to compare to), but there was good racing out there.

Back to topic, I like berms, i like table tops.  I could care less if they are on my race track.  I have fun on them in k-falls, and i have fun w/o them at most other tracks, elevation changes are the common denominator.  your design would be great !!

Thanks for the positive feedback. I never intended to steer the thread into an RVRC complaint thread. I just wanted to know if this looked good or even fun at all. I (and everyone else) know that White City has issues, but that doesn't mean those who choose to go can't have a better track.

A lot of people would agree with you, but there's two sides to that argument. People do like big jumps, but it also creates larger problems. If people struggle clearing the jump consistently (think novice classes or stock motor) there's going to be a lot of crashes and will ultimately slow everyone else down. Racing is about going fast and not crashing, not necessarily about catching big air and crashing spectacularly.

This is my personal opinion speaking as both a seasoned racer and somebody who's concerned for everybody's fun and enjoyment: The track should be fun, look inviting, but not intimidating. A first-time racer can easily be scared by big jumps with big gaps. There needs to be a good balance. Jumps need to be built so they can be cleared by an experienced racer, but also taken as single jumps for those that are less skilled or with slower trucks.

Berms are definitely fun and help make high-speed corners more fun, but they need to be added to corners that allow for high-speed cornering. Putting a berm on a 180-degree turn isn't the best use, because the fastest guys will just hug the pipe and ignore the berm. They need to be put on sweeping corners or chicanes.

Tabletops, in my opinion, are pretty useless. Everybody just clears them anyway, so why waste all the fill-in dirt? I'd rather see a berm or uphill corner used with that dirt.
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This post wins the forum!!!!
There is some great logic and foresight written here. Nice post Chris!

greg

p.s. Chris, get with me and we can discuss layout ideas

Well, thanks. I realize that a lot of people just want to go really fast and jump really big, but the bottom lines comes down to the fact that it's a racetrack and racers want to race, not crash.

That said, however, I still think White City's current layout is pretty lame. Sorry, but that's how I feel. I'm certain that something better can be done that's both fun and inviting. I hate continually comparing White City to Klamath Falls, but those guys have got something great. That track is fun, fast and has an excellent difficulty range, especially with the overhauls they just made.

Greg, I'll shoot you an email/PM and share my thoughts with you.

EDIT: I thought that maybe some people might be confused about why I feel the way I do. Let me clarify a few things. I like big jumps and high speeds as much as the next guy, but we have to realize that if we want the track to thrive, we need new blood to show up and want to race. That means that the track needs to be forgiving for new drivers as much as it needs to be challenging for seasoned drivers. When I started racing I was 14. I had my own job and my own (disposable) income, but I still didn't enjoy breaking parts. Imagine the 10/12/14-year olds that want to show up (I've talked to them when they show up) and race, but he's afraid of breaking parts after crashing on gigantic jumps. I was terrified at my first several races, partly because I wasn't sure what to do, where to go, how to act, how to corner/jump/brake/marshall, etc. The more inviting the track (and people) is, the more people we might get showing up. I think there is a balance between the "go big or go home" and being "welcome to all ages and skill levels."

I went to the gun range next door to RVRC a couple weeks ago for the first time. They have a whole range dedicated to just .22 and .177 caliber for beginners. They realize people need a place to learn and they provide that for them. We can't build a track that's just for experienced racers and expect beginners not to be intimidated.

As much as i agree a track has to be fun for noobs but cannot be boring for experienced racers.

There is such things as jumps that go big for vehicles with power and a secondary jump within that big just for noobs that dont wish to fly.

I've seen hundreds of tracks/races where 8yo kids to 40+adults with tons of racing experience have a blast and its a multi driver level layout.

I'd like to see the WC track blow up but if its gonna be super fun for noobs its most likely gonna be brainless and boring for experienced people after a few laps.

Completely agreed. That's why I really think there needs to be a middle ground. You can never please everybody, we should all know that, but that's why this forum is here. Opinions matter, and everybody's is just as valid as the next guy's.

well i got in on this the last time this topic was up. and yes i will come play on it but if it is lam then i guess i will just keep buildin on my track here at my house and have people come and play and let them see what fun a track with tabletops and so sick bermed corners. hope the best for your track build.

you are all right. 
I was a noob, and don't consider myself a seasoned racer.  so you really never know how new a noob is.  but it is a race track, noob or not it's still a race.  I believe that a orientation to racing is often in need.  And they do a pretty decent job of that @ white city (sometimes a little to strict, imo)  but actions speak louder than words.  So i would suggest an actual orientation to racing.  ie , do some practice race laps with all the noobs at once.  they might not understand that to catch the guy in 1st, you have to be patient, and can't do it by punching the throttle harder than the next driver.  obviously the race is not won in the 1st corner, usually just a pileup.  Once the noobs understand that they can run way faster laps by driving smooth and consistent, then their noob status will slowly fade.  Transponders are always proof of lap times.  For example Greg can turn a faster lap time with a t3 brushed stadium truck, than noob #1 can with his/her overpowered brushless world beater stadium truck ,simply by driving the track smooth.  it's not a drag race, and no matter how many berms or tabletops you may or may not have, everybody has the same conditions to tackle on the track.  lastly, i have plenty of animosity towards the RVRC, but will not lie about it.  I raced out there plenty of times, and never did i race anybody new racer or seasoned vet that let  the "so called lame layout" effect the race day.  however i have had some guys kinda feel intimidated by getting lapped or last place and whatnot.  And it's that indimidation that can get in the way of the learning curve, and potentially give people the "cant" attitude
all just my random thoughts and opinions.    tires, patience, practice  = winner

So instead of everyone here whining, pissing, moaning and endlessly going on about a track that won't happen why don't the people that want to see a track come out on the 18th and see what a track is and should be?  Look in the events if you need more info, but personally I'm seriously sick of this dead horse being beaten relentlessly.  It will happen when it happens, until then who gives a F&$K????

I don't want to create waves, but the intent of this whole thread is to create progress towards potential changes that improve things. Comments like this aren't helpful. I realize you don't care. That much is clear. You feel Jacksonville has a superior track. That is also clear. You're allowed your opinions. That's fine. But if you're "serousily sick of this dead horse" than please leave it alone and don't contribute.

Thanks,
A guy who wants to improve things and not just complain

[quote author=blt4speed link=topic=1154.msg8477#msg8477 date=1336600240]
you are all right. 
I was a noob, and don't consider myself a seasoned racer.  so you really never know how new a noob is.  but it is a race track, noob or not it's still a race.  I believe that a orientation to racing is often in need.  And they do a pretty decent job of that @ white city (sometimes a little to strict, imo)  but actions speak louder than words.  So i would suggest an actual orientation to racing.  ie , do some practice race laps with all the noobs at once.  they might not understand that to catch the guy in 1st, you have to be patient, and can't do it by punching the throttle harder than the next driver.  obviously the race is not won in the 1st corner, usually just a pileup.  Once the noobs understand that they can run way faster laps by driving smooth and consistent, then their noob status will slowly fade.  Transponders are always proof of lap times.  For example Greg can turn a faster lap time with a t3 brushed stadium truck, than noob #1 can with his/her overpowered brushless world beater stadium truck ,simply by driving the track smooth.  it's not a drag race, and no matter how many berms or tabletops you may or may not have, everybody has the same conditions to tackle on the track.  lastly, i have plenty of animosity towards the RVRC, but will not lie about it.  I raced out there plenty of times, and never did i race anybody new racer or seasoned vet that let  the "so called lame layout" effect the race day.  however i have had some guys kinda feel intimidated by getting lapped or last place and whatnot.  And it's that indimidation that can get in the way of the learning curve, and potentially give people the "cant" attitude
all just my random thoughts and opinions.    tires, patience, practice  = winner
[/quote]

This post is incredibly helpful. And agreed about the layout not affecting the "fun" of the day. I still enjoy myself when I'm out there, I don't have less fun because of the track, but a lot of people feel that it needs updating. That's all there is to that. Austin has a good idea, newcomers should be offered a rundown orientation, a couple laps on their own, etc. This is a helpful post and I thank you for it.

thanks for the support NEXUS.

@ sincad, how do you really feel ?  i hope you realize the difference between constructive criticism and insults.  i will be @ the J-ville track, have been there before, and raced @ plenty of other tracks.  I am a racer.  I am also realizing in life the value of having a positive attitude.  obviously there are people who care about others fun level in this hobby and not just their own.  remember toy cars? . I'm no angel, but damn dude your attitude needs improvement.  I personally find your post irritating.  Oh by the way "it will happen when it happens ?"  has happened and will happen again.  No reason to NEG everybody else's rants, opinions when none of it has ANYTHING to do with you (or me for that matter).  So who cares if people are organizing  a race or a designing a track layout @ a place that you are either "banned" from (which i know is the truth) or just don't like (which is obviously also the truth).  IT's RC CARS if you don't go then they still race and have fun (was like that for the last couple seasons) .  Newsflash, i am also in the same boat as you. (was booted from club, trespassed from property, then reinstated, then booted again).  However, i will race other places and won't hold a grudge @ those who stay racing there, and i hope they have as much fun as possible
Hope to see ya on the 18th

Well I'm unclear were either of you get your info, but I have watched, read, and listened to people talk about a local track for over six months on just this bored alone!  It's a dead horse, not sure how it can be misconstrued in any manner.  I'm not wanting to create waves but big attitudes and taking things the wrong way on a "message board" get you no where (ask john/GPS about that)  My comments were not to be taken any other way than "when you have prudent info then spill it, until then quit bs'ing"  I like hearing from guys like bartlejuice, GPRacer and Casey35 who have a correct attitude towards things.  Comments are comments, most that "know me"  will know that I'm outspoken in life and in principle, I'm not one of those people to act big on a board and not back it up in person.  Secondly I know Gene, Betty and Rhonda VERY well, ask them about the guy that comes in every now and then and drops serious coin, I may disagree with the track system they have in place, and some of the prices they may charge above MAP pricing but otherwise no beef, I have also NEVER been booted from that track, I actually left and as far as I know I'm allowed to rejoin at anytime.  Get your $h!T straight before you make attempts to call someone out.  Be careful who and how you choose to burn people here and in life, it only makes you look like an ass.