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TLR 22-4 4WD buggy

Discussion in 'News' started by Nexus, Sep 26, 2013.

  1. Nexus

    Nexus Registered

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    It's been rumored for quite some time and it's finally announced. TLR has "updated" and revised the XX-4 and has announced their new 4WD buggy just in time for the 4WD round of the IFMAR World Championships.

    • 2.5mm hard-anodized aluminum 7075 T-6 aluminum chassis
    • Sealed 3-belt drivetrain with modular covers
    • Centralized forward motor mount
    • Gen II hard-anodized, big bore 12mm emulsion shocks
    • Steering Ackerman plate
    • HDS Slipper Clutch
    • Ball Differentials with Tungsten Carbide Balls
    • Universal driveshafts
    • Integrated battery restraint system
    • Two sets of TLR wheels included
    • Compact, one-piece wing mount
    • Updated body and wing
    • One-way Clicker of Full Time 4wd
    • Front and Rear Aluminum Camber Blocks
    http://www.tlracing.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=TLR03005

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
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  2. GPS

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    Interesting layout. I think that is the first off road vehicle I've seen with a forward biased motor position. Are you planning to get one of these?
  3. Nexus

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    I'd love one, but can't afford one by any stretch of the imagination. That, and I wouldn't even think about diving into another class until I feel like I can stay competitive with my new(ish) short course truck.

    As for the forward-mounted motor its actually a carryover from the 15-year-old Team Losi XX-4. Since the weight of the battery is situated in the back half of the car they balance it out by placing the motor in the centerline of the chassis and balance the weight forward. Since the motor rests in the center of the chassis (unlike a lot of other 4WD that are offset to one side) they designed a 3-belt drivetrain. Pretty cool. We'll see how it does this weekend at the Worlds.
  4. GPS

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    What do think about going with belts?
    I just found and posted some info on this and the new Tekin controller in the news forum. There are video interviews from both manufacturers.
  5. blt4speed

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    well, a bunch of us are heading down tomorrow a.m. we'll get to see first person if this buggy is as badass as it looks. personally, I have driven a schumacher, a b44.1, and a durango. I liked the durango best, plus the price point is by far the the best. I may not join this class yet, but i see it slowly growing locally. Probably be a decent 4wd 1/10 buggy class this winter @ PBR, also 2wd buggy slowly growing locally.
  6. GPS

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    How did you like that Schumacher? I think Schumacher recently released a new buggy also. It looks like Team Associated's Ryan Maifield is off to a good start:
    http://www.redrc.net/2013/09/maifield-sets-pace-in-final-free-practice/

    I hope someone remembers to take some photos down there tomorrow!
  7. GPS

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    Ugh. I just noticed that this model has a ball differential. That'll have to be replaced right away with a gear differential which I didn't see in their parts and accessories list. Maybe someone like SpecR will step up and make one for Losi.
    I am also not keen on how they left the slipper adjustment nut and spring sticking out there in the open. Putting it behind a cap like ProLine does with their's would have been a nicer solution.
  8. highlandcrawler

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    Thats not really a bad thing. Ball diffs work very well when built and setup right. There is no gear diff available and the team drivers and reps say one is not in the works. They tested it with one and performance was better with the ball diff. Ill take a ball over gears almost any day on a race track in most cars as they just put the power down better.
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  9. GPS

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    I was kind of surprised to hear this because it looks like a lot of the on-road touring cars have gone to gear differentials and they run in a cleaner environment. How does a ball diff put the power down better?
  10. Nexus

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    Less complexity and rotating weight. It's not necessarily a "this diff works better" sort of thing as much as it is a "this diff is lighter" (and easier to tune) type of thing.

    Agreed. The only thing I've ever had gear diffs in was any of my 1/8-scale monster trucks. Granted I never raced them, but I'm ball diffs for racing all the way. I hate rebuilding and tuning them, but that just comes with the territory.
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  11. GPS

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    I did some searching on gear differentials vs. ball differentials and there is plenty out there on this subject. In the end it looks like it's really more of a personal choice than a technical one. Everyone seems to agree that gear differentials are lower maintenance in both running and repairs and can handle more power than ball differentials. Tuning is easier and less complicated with ball differentials because you only need to tighten or loosen a screw whereby a gear differential requires you to remove it from the model and change the oil to a thicker or thinner one.
    There are some people who feel that there is less rotational mass with ball differentials, however I found instances where people actually measured them for a particular model and found gear differentials were actually lighter.

    It's pretty clear that gear differentials are becoming more common and many cite this being due to the power of brushless systems. Outside of crawlers nobody is using brushed motors in racing anymore. It's unanimous that gear differentials can handle more power and proof is that ball differentials are only used in 1/10 scale and smaller RC models. Ball differentials are not used in anything 1:1 scale.

    I even found a interesting differential design by 3Racing for their Sakura Zero that uses needle bearings instead of balls which theoretically could overcome the poor wear characteristics of ball differentials. Here is a link and a photo:

    sakura-zero38-roller-differential.jpg

    Interesting Tidbit: Cecil Schumacher of Schumacher Racing invented the ball differential (wikipedia) and even applied for a patent. He was declined because there was a prior use in a lawn mower.
  12. Nexus

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    I wondered why nobody ever made a diff with needle bearings. I had that idea, like, 10 years ago. Seems like it could work pretty well and solve some of the mechanical issues at the same time.

    I think the big convenience with ball diffs that makes them attractive for racing is their tune-ability. It's a whole lot easier to put a hex driver in a screw and turn it just a bit than to pull the entire gear assembly out and refill with thicker/thinner fluid. In racing it's all about finding the best setup and ball diffs (in my opinion) offer that with the most ease and flexibility.
  13. GPS

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    I am surprised that more companies are not doing a needle bearing differential also. I read one guy who has some CNC experience has adapted this 3Racing needle bearing differential into a off road buggy.

    I agree with you that the fast adjustability of the ball differential is a benefit and in my mind the only one. This benefit has clear advantages for guys who race and need to tune their models for different track conditions in the field.
  14. GPS

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    Thought this differential explanation was fun:

  15. highlandcrawler

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    My views and opinions here are 1/10 offraod related

    I will start with saying it is plain and simple human nature to fear or question what we don't understand. If we didn't we would never learn new things or get anywhere in life just accepting things.

    I think gear diffs gain popularity as we as a society become lazier and want everything in life easier and faster even if we are sacrificing something else in return. In this case tenths of a second. The vast majority of people never get to experience a ball diffs performance due to improper care or building. I see it time and time again at the track where guys bring out a brand new ball equipped truck/buggy and just run the piss out of it, let the balls slip, let the gear melt and call it junk and blame the diff as being weak or at flaw. They go to the LHS and buy a gear diff and jam it full of grease and head back out on the track not caring about the performance of said diff. Next week you hear them telling the new guy that just bought same said truck how they need to swap it out right away and tell them how bad the ball diff was. New guy follows suit because he doesn't know better yet and the bad stereotype spreads and more people assume easier is better equaling faster.

    Now think of this same idea from a marketing standpoint. A company in this day and age knows we want things faster, cheaper, easier, stronger, bigger, smaller and so on so the gear diff appeals to a larger crowd and makes more sales. You see the manufacturer make claims about the gear diffs being less maintenance and easier to tune but notice you wont ever see them claim it makes a car faster? Now for the general RTR buyer or weekend hobbyist this isn't a bad thing at all. They most likely don't care about diff and chassis tuning and the simple durability of a gear diff is great. Probably why most RTR cars come gear equipped. Now look at the same car in kit form intended for the more serious hobbyist or racer and they more often than not include a ball diff.

    Now if you haven't fallen asleep yet I will give my personal experiences and thoughts on their performance differences. I have raced offroad for 20+ years now on and off and have the privilege of a nice track at my house with timing system and transponders (thanks sinister). I can tune back to back in a controlled environment as long as i want or until i get bored:).
    [​IMG]
    (Just a random track shot of a FT B4.1 that was funny tonight at the track)
    Long story short these arent things I read on the web or things I heard but tested proven personal findings. In 2wd buggy, 2wd stadium and 2wd scb the ball diff 100% helps me turn faster laps especially the looser the track is. Given I race out door dirt tracks where duff and loom can form in just a couple laps sometimes this may be a contributing factor to my findings although at PBR and CGRC I have similar results. I have tested and own ball and gear diffs for all my vehicles and with the ball I can get on power sooner when exiting the corners. Now being a Losi driver against a field of associated cars this is a major help. Associateds by design have always been able to dive under us on the corner entry so we (Losi car) are at a disadvantage going into the corner. The sooner I can be back on the gas and lock the rear end down gets me coming out of the same corner ahead of said Associated car in the end. In the same situation with the gear diff corner entry will be a little looser and allow more rotation going in but will be more likely to spin out when you power back down. You see with the fluid diff you have one constant plane of resistance with the gears against the fluid. Now it doesn't matter if you are putting a lot or a little power to the diff fluid viscosity stays the same. With a ball diff you have different tunable levels of traction at different places. Imagine a ball diff as being locked together basicaly and it requires a certian amount of power to break loose initially and once it does the grip level on the ball and rings changes through the power range. On the rougher sections of the track I notice a lot more general stability from the rear with the ball also. I attribute this to the slight diffing out action of the gear diff. It allows the car to ever so slightly spin that tire as it travels over the bumps causing some side motions as a side effect. The ball diff under hard acceleration is more locked in and travels more locked in over a rough fast section. This is how we pick op those fractions of seconds. On the track we aren't tuning for seconds but tenths and thousands. Just tiny things like that make it superior in my eyes and the eyes of most top drivers.

    Then there is the huge advantage of tunability of a ball at the track. Say you run a few heats and the track loosens up and starts blowing out all over. The gear diff driver is left to just deal with the changing conditions and run or disassemble the rear of his truck and swap in a new diff or change fluid. Thats 5 minutes minimum even with a power tool on a simple car. I can adjust my ball diff in about 5 seconds and be ready again and if it isn't just right i can give her another quick adjust and off again. If the gear diff driver didn't like his change there is another 5 minutes again trying a different fluid. Thats 10 minutes for him so far and 10 seconds for me. In that 10 minutes I could rebuilt my shocks for the conditions and change my rear squat and toe and be way more tuned in than him just changing a diff. In a timed racing environment thats HUGE. So time and tunability play into the equation equally with the performance side I feel.

    Others have different opinions and feelings on the subject but those are some of my findings. It will always continue on as a Chevy vs ford type debate with people liking what works best for them. Also track surface and traction levels play a role of cours. Its not a bad idea to have both units and use it as another tuning aid. I know I go back and forth but always feel the ball is faster and have recorded lap times I cant argue with. I encourage everyone that isn't familiar with a ball diff to seek out a veteran and get some tips and tricks about them and give them a try. If nothing else you will get a neat mechanical understanding of whats going on and have a better understand between handling relationships associated with different aspects of tuning.
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  16. highlandcrawler

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    They aren't used in full size vehicles because there simply isn't a need or use. Not everything translates between rc and real life. Some ideas just work different on different scales. There are diffs that work on the same principals just executed different. A limited slip or clutch type diff in as truck would be the full size equivalent basically. Uses clutch plates not balls but is working on the same principals. And just like rc in actual full size racing a traditional open diff is seldom used and most opt for a limited slip, locker, or spool type unit. So even in the 1:1 word the same technology applies and the limited slip units prevail over the gears.
  17. highlandcrawler

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    On a similar note any other old Losi drivers out there that remember the hydra drive:D
  18. GPS

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    Thanks for that. Lot's of good stuff in there. I didn't mean to hijack Nexus' thread into a differential topic, sorry about that. I don't even know what cars or trucks I have that are ball differential or gear. I'm pretty sure my OFNA hyper 10SC is gear, I think our Team Associated T4 is ball. I'm not sure what's in my XRay T3. I know my SC8e is all gear because I had to build it. It looks like my OFNA GTP-2e is also gear.

    Since you mentioned that you're opinions are 1/10 scale off road related, what aren't the 1/8 scale off road rigs, like the SC8e, ball differential? I noticed that in all the forums I visited that the ball vs. gear differential discussion is always the smaller scale stuff. Can't they just scale up the ball size for the bigger rigs?

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