Opinions/Suggestions regarding the PBR Opener Race

[size=14pt]Let me start this post by saying that I only intend to provide my personal feedback and/or constructive criticism. It is in no way intended to discount, discredit or offend anybody that put in the intense amount of work needed to pull this amazing track off and get it off the ground.
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That said, I want to say how awesome it is to have a good-sized indoor off-road racetrack in the valley. I've been dreaming of something like this since I started racing 12 years ago. Here it is and it's exactly what I was hoping for. There are a few things that I think need some polish. Caleb and Adam made it pretty clear during the driver's meetings that they are open to suggestions and criticisms and I thought this was the best place to put those sort of things forward so that everybody here can chime in, agree, disagree or offer up more suggestions. Here goes, in list format, the things that I think might need improvement:

• The entry fee is pretty steep. I brought this up once before and I realize that the facility has to make money, but absolutely everybody that I talked to at the track agreed that it's too expensive. Two people I talked to (who will remain anonymous) told me that they had brought additional cars to race but didn't race them due to cost. I think At $15 (per person, my wife races, too) we wont' be able to afford going more than a couple times a month.
• 3 heats is too many heats. I'm really accustomed to racing two heats and one main. I think Sunday's event went on too long. Cutting races down to 2 heats would probably free up an hour assuming there's 5 or 6 classes. Most people I talked to toward the end of the day were more than ready to leave by the times the mains rolled around.
• The guardrail on the driver stand is too tall. I talked to both Adam and Caleb about it and I understand it was a bit of an over-sight, but I'm still bringing it up here. (It's Austin's fault, apparently. Blame him. )It's about a foot too tall in my opinion and I think it needs to be dropped down. I know somebody mentioned building a step that spans the driver's stand but then another driver was telling me about how easy it is to fall backward off a step that tall. Also, I got pitch on my hands a couple times while resting on the guardrail.
• The double needs a landing jump in the middle. I guess this would turn it into a triple, but I noticed the vast majority of 2WD cars (short course or otherwise) were taking the double as two singles so they didn't crash trying to make such a big jump. Give these people the option to have a "landing" jump in the middle so it isn't such a hard landing. Alternatively, it could be turned into a tabletop jump, but then you might have a problem seeing the next lane over.
• The mogul/rhythm section sucks. Bret brought this up in another thread and I wholeheartedly agree with him. I know it's designed to slow cars down and help make the track more technical, but I personally just hate it. I'd rather there be a double jump or whoops that have real rhythm there instead of a "hodge-podge" of ruts and bumps.
• The step-up/step-down in the far corner needs to be a berm. It's kind-of awkward the way it is now. I was honestly really surprised the track didn't have a berm anywhere in the design and I think that's a fantastic place to build one. It would possibly even make the triple/roller section easier to handle. I also think the "upper-left" (from the driver's stand) corner could use a small berm, too if the rhythm section gets re-worked.
• The announcing sounds really bassy/muddled. Maybe a weird suggestion, but I honestly can't hear the announcing because it sounds so "muddy". If your PA system has an equalizer you should dial down the bass and raise the mids and highs so it sounds clearer. Another mic might do some good, too. Cheap or "blown out" mics tend to produce really fuzzy/muddy/unclear sound.
• The music is a nice touch. Not a complaint at all! I actually enjoyed listening to music over the PA system during the small downtimes.
• The IFMAR Starts and Rocket Rounds are awesome. It allows everyone to qualify on their own clock without having to worry about passing. Then, you get heads-up pass-for-positions racing for the main event. That's the best qualifying and racing format I've seen.

I realize that maybe this looks like my personal "problem list" and I just want the track redesigned to cater my issues, but I'm watching a lot of people struggle with the same elements of the track or hearing other drivers say the same things I'm thinking. I hope everybody involved with this track can see this as constructive. I know that things were done they way there were done for a reason, but now that you have had a real event with real racers and all of them with their own individually-valid opinions it might be worth re-thinking some things. No one is wrong, nobody is right and we're all entitled to our own opinions. These are mine.

I had fun, I want to come back, I want this place to succeed and I wanted to share how I felt.

I guess I will answer you here lol.  All my answers inside your post will be in red

Wow that was quite the compaint list. lol I have to say no track can please everyone but considering its a brand new facility and the first race I thought you guys did a hell of a job keep it up. 

[quote author=jt409 link=topic=3243.msg18015#msg18015 date=1367897899]
Wow that was quite the compaint list. lol I have to say no track can please everyone but considering its a brand new facility and the first race I thought you guys did a hell of a job keep it up. 
[/quote][quote author=jt409 link=topic=3243.msg18015#msg18015 date=1367897899]
Wow that was quite the compaint list. lol I have to say no track can please everyone but considering its a brand new facility and the first race I thought you guys did a hell of a job keep it up. 
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Thank you. We are trying and I want to try and get everyone's thoughts.

had a blast 8) im sure it will be fine tuned soon,leave it be it definetly is a drivers track,thanks for the awsome weekend  ;D ;D ;D ;D

all things considered =

I payed out $40.oo to ride at Johns Peak last week end (just fees-no gas ect.)
a drive to Redding is 300 plus miles round trip (at 20 mpg/15 gallons gas) +($3.70 per gallon) = $55.50 for gas alone

That must be golden bread.

Hey guys,

Jason Schurig from Rattlesnake Raceway in Redding here.

I will re-post what I posted on rctech, but first my thoughts on the above: Rattlesnake charges $15 first class and $10 each additional class to non club members.  Club members pay a yearly fee of $20 and in turn get $12 first entry, $8 second entry.  So your entry fees are perfectly in line with other tracks in the area.  3 heats is great for big races, 2 heats is better for club racing.  We do 2 heats and mains for our club races.  Start time 10am and usually done by 4pm.  But you really need to do what the locals want to do.  Always cater to the locals.  Whatever brings the most locals out and keeps em happy.  Acquire a few more egg crates for people to stand on and that problem will be solved.  No need to cut the rail down or anything like that.  A double landing in the middle of the feature for the 2wd's would be awesome!  The moguls are rough but by the end of the day I was enjoying them!  As well as the double/single before the straightaway.  They are technical sections and might benefit from a little massaging but for the most part they are just fine!  No need to add berms or get crazy there.  Traction will improve with proper tire selection.  Super soft small pin tires would be the way to go.  Jconcepts 3d's or proline square fuzzies would probably stick like velcro.  You guys will figure that out as you test more.  On the whole it was probably the best "first race" at a new track that I have ever attended.  You guys are doing a LOT right, and you will make small improvements here and there as you learn.  The locals should stick in there as you guys have an awesome facility right there that truly has top notch potential.

My post from rctech:
Awesome day! For those of you that are on the fence, get out there and hang with the Grants Pass guys! Fun crew and they ran a very good program! Turnout was good, racing was close and track conditions were consistent all day! 3 rounds of quals plus mains so plenty of runtime! Indoor warehouse so weather was not a factor, lighting inside was great so I am sure they will night race eventually. Tires will last forever on that surface, I hardly noticed any wear at all - my tires still look new! Nice pit area with easily accessible power and plenty of room. I had a blast and once again I want to thank Mr. Bartle and Caleb for all the work and effort they put in to make that track happen! Awesome stuff! I had a blast and will definitely be back sometime!

Jason
www.rattlesnakerc.com

That must be golden bread with the massage option.
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He is right in his own respect John. No reason to be snide. He is quoting the national average price of a loaf. Not the cheapest you can buy. Prices have gone up for all things in life and I think we are being fairly competitive in most cases. Nexus if you remember we were paying $10 to race at the white city track years ago. Even rpm hobbies charged $12 per entry and that was four years ago. Even if I lower the prices to $12 per entry to use nexus as an example would only be saving $24 per month. Factor that into fuel to drive two hours to cottage grove and there really is no savings.  I have beat this one thing through mine and Adams head relentlessly lately trying to figure out what to do.  I still don't have a solid answer for everyone yet. I've done the numbers over and over and am trying to figure it out.

Thank you for the insight and kind words mr jason!

Ill Start out by saying i had a blast racing sunday.  Great racing in 2wd sc, where did bret come from, is his car legal??  lol  awesome racing tho..  Ive got a few "opinions" from myself...
biggest topic is the track..... it is what it is, the same for everyone, the moguls were completely unpredictable, unless you rolled thru them.. slow..but not wrecked.. i liked parts of it and really disliked parts of it...  but it will all come around.. I will agree that the far elevated corner was tough, it had negative slope which meant if you got outside at all it few you out into the pipe and if you got stuck it took forever for a corner worker to climb up and get ya, maybe give it a little banking or atleast flatten it out...traction was tough..very tough  but the finess easy on easy off drivers prevailed, the only alternative is a track that is hooked up and everyone is uncontrollably fast..lol  but on the upside of that (like in kfalls) almost any combo of tires work..  Sweeping was a nice touch, made the track more consistant, but trying to sweep yielding to cars making 5 laps before the race sucked..  There not gas, no reason for warmup laps.. check in drive around to the "feature" roll over pipe to main straight and start the race, may even save some time. I agree with many others about the drivers stand being to tall, i dont see it being "cost" effective as you already have all the materials, just need couple hours to rework.  Your commented about a step being built and it being unsafe, ill ask what is the difference between a step along the stand and a milk crate??  The show ran a little long(for us that traveled) we started our day at 7 and were home at 9  the show started on time and ran great until intermission, tad long, then we ran 3rd round and had another 15-25 minute break..  run all 3 rounds back to back 15 min break...mains.  Maybe less time between races will help too... might try shooting for an ending time of 5ish.  so if its 4 dont start a 3rd round, go to mains....  I like the fact that a sportsman class is being added, will help clean up 2wd and 4wd sc..  noticed few times people trying to race leaders and causing wrecks by trying to race and keep up.  One other thing i noticed was corner marshalling seemed to be an issue..  weather it be not pay attention to rolled over stuck cars, placing them wrong direction/wrong lane, running out in front of cars and getting hit.. i know for a fact i hit the same guy twice in practice and once during sc main, cause he didnt watch the track...  I like to say at our drivers meeting if your cornering and running to or from a car and get hit 100% its corner marshalls fault.    could be a big issue with bigger, heavier cars..  I would go as far as saying if your not racing, your not corner marshalling....  no reason for a helpful spectator to walk out with broke ankle or the leader with broke a-arm.  Maybe just a quick run down in the drivers meeting would help clear things up for newbies .... Now for the hot topic, Fees...I will say april 6th i paid 20 to race 3 classes in Cottage grove. they charge 10 1st, 8 2nd or 20 for 3,  if they have changed in the last month im not sure i cant say.. Northwest was really close to the same also 2 weeks prior...    I will throw this out to clarify a few things, in kfalls we are a non profit club. We charge 7 1st class and 5 each additional to non members, your correct in the fact that we are outdoor, however we do lease the property we have for our offroad track, winter time we also race and we rent/donate to a church to use there carpeted gym...    from our membership fees, which is 25 person 35 couple per year and entry fees,  we carry our own insurance, which covers everyone at a club event, land use(offroad) gym use(onroad) portable toilets(offroad) all the materials, etc.    Off the top of my head i would say this winter we paid little over a grand in donations to race thru the winter...Plus if you win you get free entry next time you show up ;D...  my thinking is that if you want to keep people coming back, it needs to be reasonable, since your gonna race weekly.  15 bucks twice a week might be tough for most.....maybe memberships or somthing..I know the overhead is high, but in all reality you have to look at the big picture, it may take a year or 2 to come close to braking even, but if it fails within the next 2 months, your stuck with empty pockets.. No reason to try and make it all back in the first 3 races LOL...        All in all great opening weekend, great turnout.great racing...  BTW im not tryin to bash or tell you has to be this or that, but just voicing my opinion and relaying things i heard numerous times...  it will get better. Ive learned from being the president of the club over here, your not gonna please everyone, people will come and go in the hobby, just how it works, we as a club(paid members) vote on everything... everyone is involved and seems to agree..   
.....Almost forgot i did like your choice of decor(banner)    few more of those particular ones and that place will really look like somthing...    see ya next time!!

I liked the "moguls" or "anti-rythm section".  At first i hated them, but they grew on me.  I did turn marshall for the stadium trucks every time @ the moguls and their short wheel base left them more affected than other classes.  So, i could see how some may not like em yet. 

Every higher level track i've been too had racers using their own step stools on driver stand,  in some cases double steps (taller ones).  I always left mine for others to use.    I'll try to get some more step stools or crates too.       

I really like having 3 heats and main.  Gives you a chance to take a heat off if you want, or suffer a break & repair. also gives you time to figure out that "line" through moguls and over "step-up".  to me, more time = more fun.  and with no sun beating down on me, more heats just adds to the value of entry fees.

I'm fine with pricing, as the other tracks i've been to were on same page. 

I am also confident that track crew will make any necessary changes.  I feel  lucky to have a track be @ this level so quickly, and so close.  gotta remember guys this was the first event in this facilities history.  it will change via these constructive criticism rants.  But i didnt see much to improve on except my driving.  (maybe i'm biased)
any how i'm glad so many came out to have fun. 

I thought the first event was great. You guys did a great job, and i believe everyone will come back for more racing action. I had a few minor issues with stuff, but nothing that would keep me from coming back. Caleb, i feel for you guys on the money issues, its a tuff call. I understand about the overhead and also understand that it cost money to travel to other track, so ppl arent really saving any money by going other places to race. Yes rattlesnake charges the same for their club races, but they also only race twice a month and last summer only once a month because of not enough ppl showing up..... im sure jason will correct me if im wrong on that. So depending upon what the race schedule will be, i believe adjusting your price to what will bring the most ppl in and the most amount of money overall. We all want to race, and we will all be there to do so, but i think more ppl will show up if they can afford to race more often. Things to consider maybe...... A monthly flat fee for practice? or a punch card for practices, and if you get a certain amount, you get a free race entree? Something along those lines mite be kool, but you will have to crunch the numbers and see what works.  I think getting new ppl into the hobby is what your goal should be, all of us vets will be there no matter what!!!! WE LOVE RACING TOY CARS!!! HAHA. That bein said, i feel the non rhythm section mite be a issue. I have seen all the vets on here posting about that section, and we dont mind it because we have yrs of race experience..... but what do the novice guys think? Your first time racer isnt gonna show up at the track with a extra front arm for a slash or sc10....... and with no on site hobby shop, they could be done racing for the day. Just something to think about. I have a great group of guys in yreka, and let me tell ya, if you can get the novice guys to try it out and not get mad cuz they are breaking parts, or getting lapped a few times in the race, well my friends, they will jump in head first to this hobby and next thing you know they will have multiple cars and wanna be at the track as much as possible!!! Just a few ideas, i dont pay the bills tho, so its not up to me. I will support PBR Hobbies and bring as many of my toy car lovin friends as i can to your track!  8)  Also i posted a vid online of the 4wd A main..... sorry i took you out twice jaime!

  Steve just to be on the level with you, even if I continued to have the same amount of entries we had this weekend every weekend for the next two (2) years at the same rate the shop would still be at a loss of roughly $11,555.00 and that is without paying Adam and I a red cent.  The cost involved here no where near equates to what you folks have in K-falls.  I'm sorry but they cannot be compared at all.  I own two other businesses in GP here and I understand that this facility may not make anything for a period of almost three years as my projections look, possibly even longer.  We are by no means charging enough to try and break even or pay back the loan as it would be called that this business took to start.

[quote author=yreka rc link=topic=3243.msg18040#msg18040 date=1367938143]
I thought the first event was great. You guys did a great job, and i believe everyone will come back for more racing action. I had a few minor issues with stuff, but nothing that would keep me from coming back. Caleb, i feel for you guys on the money issues, its a tuff call. I understand about the overhead and also understand that it cost money to travel to other track, so ppl arent really saving any money by going other places to race. Yes rattlesnake charges the same for their club races, but they also only race twice a month and last summer only once a month because of not enough ppl showing up..... im sure jason will correct me if im wrong on that. So depending upon what the race schedule will be, i believe adjusting your price to what will bring the most ppl in and the most amount of money overall. We all want to race, and we will all be there to do so, but i think more ppl will show up if they can afford to race more often. Things to consider maybe...... A monthly flat fee for practice? or a punch card for practices, and if you get a certain amount, you get a free race entree? Something along those lines mite be kool, but you will have to crunch the numbers and see what works.  I think getting new ppl into the hobby is what your goal should be, all of us vets will be there no matter what!!!! WE LOVE RACING TOY CARS!!! HAHA. That bein said, i feel the non rhythm section mite be a issue. I have seen all the vets on here posting about that section, and we dont mind it because we have yrs of race experience..... but what do the novice guys think? Your first time racer isnt gonna show up at the track with a extra front arm for a slash or sc10....... and with no on site hobby shop, they could be done racing for the day. Just something to think about. I have a great group of guys in yreka, and let me tell ya, if you can get the novice guys to try it out and not get mad cuz they are breaking parts, or getting lapped a few times in the race, well my friends, they will jump in head first to this hobby and next thing you know they will have multiple cars and wanna be at the track as much as possible!!! Just a few ideas, i dont pay the bills tho, so its not up to me. I will support PBR Hobbies and bring as many of my toy car lovin friends as i can to your track!  8)  Also i posted a vid online of the 4wd A main..... sorry i took you out twice jaime!
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I will start by saying since our opening event I have been on the phone with many of the guys that were there and many who know.  This has been the two most stressful days I have had in a long time.  I want to first say I cannot please everyone, so I have to stop trying at some point and this is the point.  Here are my final thoughts on almost all points made.

Entry fees are now going to be $12 First class $10 Second and $8 for the third.  There will also be family discounts as in the example of Nexus and his wife.  His wife would count as a second class so there total entry would be $22  Thats only $2 above what you would pay to race at Cottage Grove and you wouldn't have to drive two hours!

Track changes;  The track is what it is, I have had all the input I can take.  We will be adding a section to the middle of the double and letting the mogul section flatten itself out in time.  If and when we change the track it will be after the OSS, we wanted a technical drivers track and that is what we have.

We will be starting weekend races this weekend, Sunday seems to appeal to the masses and the first points race will be this Sunday.  There will be 8 rounds total with a 3 week on 1 week off schedule that I will post soon.  Until more people come in we will not be holding weeknight racing.  As soon as I see 10 solid entries per for a week night race we will only be holding the weekend racing.

Weekend racing will be Three heats (rocket rounds) and a main.  There was some slack on our OPENER since the software had a few teething issues with split classes and we need to make sure that the loop worked consistently.  If we do weeknight racing it will be two heats (lap rounds) and a main to save on time.

The stand is the stand, if you feel you have the resources to fix it and would like to donate your time and materials than I am not opposed to it, heck Adam and I will help however we can but we will not be fixing it on our own.  We will be taking care of the sap problem also, the wood was fairly fresh and it will stop that soon.

This is my rant fellas and these are the changes we are making to try and appease the masses.  I'm sorry if I come across crass or stern but as I said I cannot please everyone so I need to make decisions and run with them.  I hope to see you guys and gals this weekend.

This is awesome. Sometimes I think I'm a hypocrite for complaining about $8 when I look at the thousands I've spent on this hobby, but hey, $8 will buy a big-ass burrito.

[quote author=yreka rc link=topic=3243.msg18040#msg18040 date=1367938143]
Things to consider maybe...... A monthly flat fee for practice? or a punch card for practices, and if you get a certain amount, you get a free race entree?
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The punch card actually sounds like a pretty cool idea to me. Lots of business do 'em, I think it's great incentive to get people to keep coming back or to race more frequently. One punch for each class you race, a free entry at 10 sounds pretty nice.

[quote author=steve 40 link=topic=3243.msg18032#msg18032 date=1367906195]
Sweeping was a nice touch, made the track more consistant, but trying to sweep yielding to cars making 5 laps before the race sucked..  There not gas, no reason for warmup laps.. check in drive around to the "feature" roll over pipe to main straight and start the race, may even save some time.
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I agree with this. The electric cars don't need warm-up laps so just let 'em check in and wait on the front straight.

[quote author=blt4speed link=topic=3243.msg18033#msg18033 date=1367907624]
Every higher level track i've been too had racers using their own step stools on driver stand,  in some cases double steps (taller ones).  I always left mine for others to use.    I'll try to get some more step stools or crates too.
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This is probably the best solution, really. Thanks for leaving your stool up there, Austin. I stood on it a lot. Adam suggested people bring their own stools and mark 'em with your name and leave them up there. The milk crates that were already there feel pretty flimsy and I can imagine them caving in so people that need a stool should probably invest in their own.

I'm glad that there's some great talk and civil discussions here. It'll all work out.

Also, on an ever-so-slightly unrelated note, my father has a vinyl plotter and makes signs for on-the-side work. I think the track could benefit from a nice sign hanging on the building. He can't do printed vinyl (think car wraps) just regular single-color vinyl but he charges less than your average sign shop.

As I have said that was due to us trying to ensure that the loop worked without question.  Normally you will only have a two lap warmup.

Sounds good Caleb. I know I stated that I didn't like the last set of jumps, but it was not bad for 1/10 2wd at all, just difficult. My only concern is with anyone standing at that end of the track. I tripled it 3 times in the buggy main, but once I caught the top of the third bump and my Ebuggy cartwheeled at a high rate of speed over the blocks and into the exterior wall. It missed the corner marshal by a foot and a child by only a few feet. Safety is a bit of a issue there with 4wd sc and 1/8 scale rigs.

I know your insistant that it is not a triple, but it can be tripled. Another E buggy did the same thing as I did later in the main and basically came within inches of injuring the corner marshal. In 4wd sc people were attempting to triple and cartwheeling into the exterior wall as well.

If you won't change the jump at least make sure no one is standing at that end of the track. The last thing anyone wants is to unintentionally break a kids leg. I quit attempting it after that point, and I plan on switching from ebuggy to stadium truck next race, but it doesn't mean people aren't going to go for it.

calab i think you guys are doing a great job and i think you and adam have been more then reasonable on the BIG discussion!!! I think everything will work out great i dont think i can make this weekends race but after that im down!! Once again GREAT JOB on everything you and adam have worked so hard to obtain!!

Ok I will try to state this as simple as possible so all can understand. It is NOT a triple. If you do triple it and crash I will dock laps. That's it final warning. Double single or single double is fine. As you stated its a safety issue, Yeop and its a track and crashes happen, the difference here is these could be avoided.  You know you could also take the step up to far and hit the marshal in the corner, Or take the front double wide and land in pit lane? Why do I not hear about that?  Maybe you guys should slow down and drive, not overdrive the track as is wasn't meant to be.  This is a dead horse. You have all been warned, if you put someone in harms way you will be booted from the track. 

Jumping over the hip into a marshal or jumping the double into the pit lane don't even make sense, thats just crashing. trying to triple three consecutive bumps in a track as a fast line is completely different. No need to come at me like that.